Comments on: P2P in Flash 10 Beta — the Questions Facing a YouTube, Skype, and BitTorrent Killer http://adamfisk.wordpress.com/2008/05/21/p2p-in-flash-10-beta-the-questions-facing-a-youtube-skype-and-bittorrent-killer/ P2P, Collaboration, Networks Mon, 07 Sep 2009 19:29:03 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: adamfisk http://adamfisk.wordpress.com/2008/05/21/p2p-in-flash-10-beta-the-questions-facing-a-youtube-skype-and-bittorrent-killer/#comment-6472 adamfisk Fri, 17 Jul 2009 06:53:36 +0000 http://adamfisk.wordpress.com/?p=36#comment-6472 @thedavidmo Stratus wasn't released when I wrote this post, but your point is more or less correct. The only issue is Stratus can't establish a p2p connection with every NAT combination out there (and neither can anything else), so any truly robust solution will always need a relay. In other words, they'll need FMS. Stratus alone will likely work in about 90% of cases, though, so it gets you pretty far. @thedavidmo Stratus wasn’t released when I wrote this post, but your point is more or less correct. The only issue is Stratus can’t establish a p2p connection with every NAT combination out there (and neither can anything else), so any truly robust solution will always need a relay. In other words, they’ll need FMS. Stratus alone will likely work in about 90% of cases, though, so it gets you pretty far.

]]> By: thedavidmo http://adamfisk.wordpress.com/2008/05/21/p2p-in-flash-10-beta-the-questions-facing-a-youtube-skype-and-bittorrent-killer/#comment-6471 thedavidmo Fri, 17 Jul 2009 03:22:12 +0000 http://adamfisk.wordpress.com/?p=36#comment-6471 Addressing (1), it's not true that you'll have to buy an FMS server in order to establish a p2p connection: Adobe is hosting a server cloud called Stratus that you can use to establish the handshake: http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/stratus/ Of course, you're still going to need FMS for any kind of centralized infrastructure that's going to require server side scripts. Addressing (1), it’s not true that you’ll have to buy an FMS server in order to establish a p2p connection: Adobe is hosting a server cloud called Stratus that you can use to establish the handshake:

http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/stratus/

Of course, you’re still going to need FMS for any kind of centralized infrastructure that’s going to require server side scripts.

]]> By: adamfisk http://adamfisk.wordpress.com/2008/05/21/p2p-in-flash-10-beta-the-questions-facing-a-youtube-skype-and-bittorrent-killer/#comment-6469 adamfisk Fri, 03 Jul 2009 17:53:51 +0000 http://adamfisk.wordpress.com/?p=36#comment-6469 The finding part is both better and more easily handled centrally, though, turning it into a simple problem. Overlays like Kademlia are cool, but the only reason to use them is to limit liability. If/when P2P networks are used for more general purposes outside piracy (sure, they are to some extent now), the basic reason for overlays like Kademlia existing disappears. A centralized index is way faster and way easier to code, ultimately making it cheaper with developer hours factored in. Sure, you've got to pay for a server or two, but that traffic is extremely lightweight and cheap in the scheme of things. Don't get me wrong, Flash has a long way to go before it's a real P2P contender. They're solving the most important problem, though -- reliable connections between any two peers on the network with firewall properly traversed. Their firewall traversal in particular is better than almost any P2P app out there. The finding part is both better and more easily handled centrally, though, turning it into a simple problem. Overlays like Kademlia are cool, but the only reason to use them is to limit liability. If/when P2P networks are used for more general purposes outside piracy (sure, they are to some extent now), the basic reason for overlays like Kademlia existing disappears. A centralized index is way faster and way easier to code, ultimately making it cheaper with developer hours factored in. Sure, you’ve got to pay for a server or two, but that traffic is extremely lightweight and cheap in the scheme of things.

Don’t get me wrong, Flash has a long way to go before it’s a real P2P contender. They’re solving the most important problem, though — reliable connections between any two peers on the network with firewall properly traversed. Their firewall traversal in particular is better than almost any P2P app out there.

]]> By: Ingmar http://adamfisk.wordpress.com/2008/05/21/p2p-in-flash-10-beta-the-questions-facing-a-youtube-skype-and-bittorrent-killer/#comment-6468 Ingmar Fri, 03 Jul 2009 10:30:01 +0000 http://adamfisk.wordpress.com/?p=36#comment-6468 Well, I'm not quite sure if Adobes attempt to p2p is a full blower. As far as I've heard, p2p funcitonality is only possible with the fms and then there's a direct connection between the clients - but well, p2p is about FINDING and receiving files from vom clients you maight not know, but getting them from cleints which as act bridges. So in terms of scalability I'm not quite sure if Adobe will be able to compete against real p2p overlays with no central infrastructure (like e.g. kademlia). I think Adobes attempt goes more in a direction of let's play a game against each other, and such... Well, I’m not quite sure if Adobes attempt to p2p is a full blower. As far as I’ve heard, p2p funcitonality is only possible with the fms and then there’s a direct connection between the clients – but well, p2p is about FINDING and receiving files from vom clients you maight not know, but getting them from cleints which as act bridges. So in terms of scalability I’m not quite sure if Adobe will be able to compete against real p2p overlays with no central infrastructure (like e.g. kademlia). I think Adobes attempt goes more in a direction of let’s play a game against each other, and such…

]]> By: adamfisk http://adamfisk.wordpress.com/2008/05/21/p2p-in-flash-10-beta-the-questions-facing-a-youtube-skype-and-bittorrent-killer/#comment-6424 adamfisk Fri, 21 Nov 2008 05:44:43 +0000 http://adamfisk.wordpress.com/?p=36#comment-6424 I agree it's not much for what you get. It's just a lot compared to the ideal: an open source implementation of the same thing using open protocols. Why settle? I agree it’s not much for what you get. It’s just a lot compared to the ideal: an open source implementation of the same thing using open protocols. Why settle?

]]> By: Williams http://adamfisk.wordpress.com/2008/05/21/p2p-in-flash-10-beta-the-questions-facing-a-youtube-skype-and-bittorrent-killer/#comment-6423 Williams Fri, 21 Nov 2008 04:04:12 +0000 http://adamfisk.wordpress.com/?p=36#comment-6423 $4,500 is nothing for a RMTP connection. Imagine all the possibilities we can do with a P2P connection! Games, conferences, chats, entreteinment.... the imagine is the limit! I want this in my hands! I´d pay one arm for it! :) $4,500 is nothing for a RMTP connection. Imagine all the possibilities we can do with a P2P connection! Games, conferences, chats, entreteinment…. the imagine is the limit! I want this in my hands! I´d pay one arm for it! :)

]]> By: kris http://adamfisk.wordpress.com/2008/05/21/p2p-in-flash-10-beta-the-questions-facing-a-youtube-skype-and-bittorrent-killer/#comment-6403 kris Mon, 03 Nov 2008 09:36:51 +0000 http://adamfisk.wordpress.com/?p=36#comment-6403 nice article. i gotta say i was much more excited about the whole thing before yesterday. thats when i found out there still has to be a fms in between - i guess it will take some while for the red5 team to implement rtmfp, if ever. my conclusion to the whole thing is dissatisfactory for now. :( nice article.
i gotta say i was much more excited about the whole thing before yesterday. thats when i found out there still has to be a fms in between – i guess it will take some while for the red5 team to implement rtmfp, if ever.

my conclusion to the whole thing is dissatisfactory for now. :(

]]> By: adamfisk http://adamfisk.wordpress.com/2008/05/21/p2p-in-flash-10-beta-the-questions-facing-a-youtube-skype-and-bittorrent-killer/#comment-6332 adamfisk Mon, 26 May 2008 16:20:07 +0000 http://adamfisk.wordpress.com/?p=36#comment-6332 Hi Luke- Very interesting stuff. I am far, far from an ActionScript expert, and I've just now glanced at the Local Shared Object API. Looks like the NetStream/NetConnection changes along with Local Shared Object might actually do the trick. I'd love to talk offlist about the details of this. Can you shoot me an e-mail at "a" at my domain (littleshoot.org)? -Adam Hi Luke- Very interesting stuff. I am far, far from an ActionScript expert, and I’ve just now glanced at the Local Shared Object API. Looks like the NetStream/NetConnection changes along with Local Shared Object might actually do the trick.

I’d love to talk offlist about the details of this. Can you shoot me an e-mail at “a” at my domain (littleshoot.org)?

-Adam

]]> By: lukebayes http://adamfisk.wordpress.com/2008/05/21/p2p-in-flash-10-beta-the-questions-facing-a-youtube-skype-and-bittorrent-killer/#comment-6331 lukebayes Sat, 24 May 2008 20:46:02 +0000 http://adamfisk.wordpress.com/?p=36#comment-6331 I just wanted to throw a quick response your way about issues #2, #3 and #4. The Flash Player actually has a local file storage service called 'Local Shared Object'. Essentially, this feature lets developers read and write arbitrary bytes to disk - including files and parts of files. End users are prompted once (ever) to authorize a particular amount of disk space (up to limitless). This feature would allow a peer to peer network exactly the kind of access they would need to distribute the downloading of large files across those users that are currently connected to their site. This could be especially powerful (and cost-effective) for high traffic sites that present high-popularity, large file-size content like Youtube. As an end user, I would only be prompted when I wanted to take a file out of the application and save it to some other location on my hard disk. Of course peer-to-peer implementations in SWF are not likely to look like today's general purpose peer-to-peer clients. The SWF versions are far more likely to be more tightly coupled to a particular content type and application. A music or video player for example. With all that said, issue #1 is still a very big problem to me at least, but it's probably far, far more cost-effective for popular sites to unload terabytes of bandwidth costs (and risks). I just wanted to throw a quick response your way about issues #2, #3 and #4.

The Flash Player actually has a local file storage service called ‘Local Shared Object’. Essentially, this feature lets developers read and write arbitrary bytes to disk – including files and parts of files. End users are prompted once (ever) to authorize a particular amount of disk space (up to limitless).

This feature would allow a peer to peer network exactly the kind of access they would need to distribute the downloading of large files across those users that are currently connected to their site. This could be especially powerful (and cost-effective) for high traffic sites that present high-popularity, large file-size content like Youtube.

As an end user, I would only be prompted when I wanted to take a file out of the application and save it to some other location on my hard disk.

Of course peer-to-peer implementations in SWF are not likely to look like today’s general purpose peer-to-peer clients. The SWF versions are far more likely to be more tightly coupled to a particular content type and application. A music or video player for example.

With all that said, issue #1 is still a very big problem to me at least, but it’s probably far, far more cost-effective for popular sites to unload terabytes of bandwidth costs (and risks).

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